Warning: May contain snark, sarcasm, extended metaphors and downright bitchiness

[sessifet]

I am not nice.*

I know some of you will disagree and some of you would do so rather vehemently if I said this in person**. I've experienced this. 'But you are nice,' has usually been the response.

Until a few days ago, I was unable to argue the point any further and basically let it go for fear of turning into a trawler for compliments. The thing is this: I may be nice, but this does not mean I am a nice person. 'Nice' to me implies a certain personality type I know I do not have. I've met a few inherently nice people and the difference is rather obvious. I work at getting along with people and being nice. This has partly to do with a need to be liked and mostly to do with preferring to be with happy people who like being around me. Happy people make me happy. Making people happy makes me happy.

Simply put, I sense what other people feel. Whether it's an innate ability to read more subtle clues to body language than most or something more is irrelevant here. When I'm stressed, I can't shut out emotions that are not mine. So I try to change them. With strangers or friends, I learnt to be a chameleon early on in life, because if I was what people thought I was or wanted me to be, they were happy. And that made me feel happy. A rather insidious self-defense mechanism, I'm sure you'll agree.

It's got better over the years and I'm no longer desperate to be whatever anyone else wants me to be, but there is still a part of me that prefers being around happy people. I will therefore work at being a likable person. So you see, if you tell me I am nice, I can't tell if you're being sincere, or if I've manipulated you into thinking I am nice.

Moving on (but still somewhat related).

I have walls. The walls have crenelations and towers. There is a machine gun nest. I have a pack of rabid attack weasels somewhere. The moat is filled with Shrieking Eels and there's a fire breathing dragon guarding the main gate. Also? Snake-filled pit somewhere as well. I need my walls. They're what keeps me sane most of the time. Do not ever ask me to remove them. It's like asking me to undress in a crowded theatre. I have been asked to do this. The walls, not the clothes.

I am not easy***. I'll admit I'm easy to get along with on a superficial level, but it all changes when you move past acquaintances. This is because I wear masks. I have any number of them that I will wear at any given time. The people who do see me without are few and far between and I trust them with my life. Being my partner or a potential partner does not mean you will see me without a mask. It does not even give you a right to it. It certainly does not give you the right to ask me to remove mine. (Yes, I have also been asked to take those off.)

So in short: I am not easy. I am not nice. I am not beyond manipulation. I can be selfish and seemingly unwilling to deal with difficult issues. I do not let all and sundry see what I'm thinking, and you are more likely to be all and sundry. Be happy, because my mind is not necessarily a happy place.

* Don't worry, this is not a litany of what is wrong with me. I also won't suddenly confess to murdering small cute baby animals when I was a child.

** But I'm not, so you'll have to sit there and see where this leads like the rest. So there. :P

*** Feel free to go 'hurhurhur' and move on at the back there.

Comments

[gipsy-dreamer.livejournal.com]

I can understand this, as I'm an empath too and I pick up on the emotions of others very easily, and it's hard when someone else's feelings mix with your own so you're not even certain if the mood you're in is *really* yours.

Just like you it can make me shut myself away, feel emotional or just make me snark. And you *are* a nice person; you can't control feelings that don't belong to you and so you have no need to apologise.

*sends lots of hugs and chocolate cake*

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

Er. Thanks. But you managed to entirely miss the whole point of my post there. I'm impressed.

[dmwcarol.livejournal.com]

That's really not the same thing at all. Being able to tell what people are feeling and responding to people on an emotional level is simply being human.

To be honest, in my experience you are a lot less empathic than most people as you frequently seem totally oblivious to when you say or do something that upsets others and seem to find it impossible to see beyond your own intentions. If anything I's day that rather than absoribing their feelings you project your own to an extent that I have seldom encountered anywhere else.

[gipsy-dreamer.livejournal.com]

I accept I can be guilty of that at times, as can we all; and I am very out of it most days because of my epilepsy meds. Yes, I did misread this post and I am misreading a lot of thngs and people lately because I don't even know what I'm really thinking or feeling half the time.

This should pass (I read that mood changes and such were a side effect in the information leaflet) but if it doesn't I'm going back to my neurologist to try something new. I used to have a much better perception of all events than I do at the moment and would like to have that back.

[ciciaye.livejournal.com]

I don't think you should beat yourself up about this though. And I certainly don't think you should withdraw from Livejournal and #afp as you mention in your lj. You've got mates here who like hearing about what you're doing, and apart from anything else, when you're going through a hard time, you need your mates around to give you support, even if it's from a distance.

*hug*

CCA

[wingedkami.livejournal.com]

You are me a few years ago and I claim my £5.

(Only you wrote it better than I did.)

[ciciaye.livejournal.com]

Everyone needs their walls sometimes, and their masks.

You may not believe yourself to be a *nice* person, but as far as I can see, you are a *decent* person, and I think that's all we can really aspire to be, most of the time.

That's why I get a bit annoyed (privately) if someone tells me that they 'want to take me out my shell'. Shells can be important for self-protection.

CCA

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I've had that as well, and it's bloody obnoxious. It carries strong overtones of 'You're wrong the way you are'. For the most part, shells and walls and masks are important self-protection because not many can be completely open to the world.

It's when they start actively hindering you that you should think about taking them away. But even then it's still up to you, and not someone else to decide if, when and in what manner.

Next time someone does it, I suggest going 'Nope, doing pretty well here, thanks.' :)

[ciciaye.livejournal.com]

I've had that as well, and it's bloody obnoxious. It carries strong overtones of 'You're wrong the way you are'

Or "I don't like the way you are, but I like the idea of what I could change you into".

Having had that a couple of times, it has made be very suspicious of whether people are trying to change me, and very appreciate of people accept me the way I am

CCA

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

Or "I don't like the way you are, but I like the idea of what I could change you into".

Hoo-boy, yes. Got burnt there same as you. It's a sneaky one, though. Because when you've just got into something (be it a friendship or a relationship) it's sometimes hard to tell where the line is between 'I want to adapt to you' and 'You're trying to change me.'.

It's got to the point where I will withdraw if I get even a hint of people assuming I'm something I'm not, just because I don't want to get burnt again.

[ciciaye.livejournal.com]

and very appreciate of people accept me the way I am

That should have been 'appreciative'

*looks hard at fingers*

CCA

[the-hatstand.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to see you specify "shells and walls and masks", because I've never actually seen anyone formalise and distinguish them.

To me, my shell is my normal state of being. I don't talk much, simply because I'm an introvert and find talking to be hard work, so I don't stray outside that comfort zone too often or for too long.

A mask is what some people need to put on in order to function outside the shell. I don't, or at least I seem to be able to function without one. But I really have no idea how to construct one. Another reason I rarely stray outside the shell for any length of time.

Walls are about hiding and protecting. Within the shell I'm not talking simply because I don't enjoy talking, but the walls are there to protect the things I specifically don't want to talk about or show.

As an introvert the shell serves as a further defence mechanism, because no-one gets to see whether I'm not talking specifically or just not talking. I'd be interested to hear how an extrovert views the same mechanisms, or even whether they agreed on the same definitions. I imagine them viewing a shell as a retreat and considering their natural environment to be outside it. And since they rarely get to use the shell as a defence mechanism, possibly the masks are there to protect the walls.

[ciciaye.livejournal.com]

I don't talk much, simply because I'm an introvert and find talking to be hard work, so I don't stray outside that comfort zone too often or for too long.

I was interested to see this, because you're one of the friendliest people I know - but then, I've always seen you in a setting full of people you know well.

CCA

[the-hatstand.livejournal.com]

Friendliness is about my attitude towards people, which should not be confused with my ability to make conversation with them. I'm often happiest in a group where I can sit back and drink in the conversation around me, occasionally joining in when I feel I have something to say, but mostly staying quiet. You've always seen me in groups where I'm comfortable not only with the people but with the kind of conversations that tend to happen in those groups. In one-to-one situations I can often struggle because I'm having to do so much more of the legwork, even it's with a good friend. With anyone else... we have a new chap at work whose natural way of filling in spare minutes is making conversation. It can be incessant, and it's frequently about stuff where I have no possible contribution to make. Doesn't mean I don't like the guy, he's not that bad a bloke, but I just can't deal with that level of relentless extroversion. Frequently the only way I can cope is to stay inside the shell where I can tune out.

[winterbay.livejournal.com]

As a apparently slightly more extrovert personality than you I find that your definitions are quite good.

I would say that you are your shell, that is your inner being, a part of you that will always be there and that needs to be protected. Outside of this you have several walls and masks. Different walls will be up at different times and together with this set of walls will come a specific mask. At least that's how it feels I'm functioning. (generic 'you' btw)

The masks I wear are usually suited for the group I'm in. I.e. if there is a lot of musicians I will probably mostly be a musician myself and if I'm at a workplace with a lot of persons that do not share my interest in strange words and complexish mathematics I will not bring that up and talk about other things like the weight of a train or whatever else anyone else is talking about.

The closer I get to know someone the less walls I will have up and the mask will change accordingly, this is a rather slow process possibly not noticable by anyone but me. The problem with functioning like this is that when someone very close to me lets me down I tend to get very hurt due to most of the walls being gone and rebuilding said walls are often a lot harder then to take them down.

[the-hatstand.livejournal.com]

This isn't what I would describe as a mask, nor do I think it's what Sessifet meant by it. You're talking about relevant areas of interest and topics of conversation; it's about the things you do. Masks are about the kind of person you are, the kind of personality you are. Some people can consciously put on a mask that makes them appear happier, or more self-assured, or more talkative. I can't do that, at least not to an extent that I'm aware that's what I'm doing and certainly not at will.

[supermouse.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone's nice. We're all angry and jealous and cruel and selfish, some of us just display it less than others. People who only project happy and pleasant and caring all the time, tend to put me on edge because of what I know is lurking out of sight. I'd rather know it was there. One thing that bothers me about 'nice' people is upsetting them and only finding out long after the fact that I did or said something trivial that could have been sorted out in ten minutes with an apology, but has been left to fester for the sake of being 'nice'.

What matters to me about your projected self, as in what about it makes me seek out your company, is that you've taken the care to appear nice, and that what you project is pleasant to be around. Really, I'll settle for that. What can be interesting is to see how someone changes depending on the exact mix of people around them, which affects pretty much everyone except extreme depressives and other people locked in their own worlds.

I wonder, with the empathy, how do you deal with people around you who are in chronic pain? (Yes, it does apply to me, but I know I am by far not the only person around who hurts a lot of the time).

[winterbay.livejournal.com]

AS a person who would define himself as 'a nice person' I find this very interesting. It is very hard to upset me, and if you should manage you would probably noice either because I would say something very angry or just walk away (neither happens very often), and I tend to adapt myself to the environment or group I'm currently in to fit in. Not the same extent as Sessifet but I can see parts of myself in that.
I love having happy people around me and I love making them happy. I usually do this by applying humour, quite often after having sensed what the other person needs in the form of a joke (or not a joke as it may be).

Sometimes this approach does not quite suffice and I change myself to fit in. I know I've done it in at least one longer relationship recently. It is interesting that when I meet her today, we're still good friends, there are a lot of annoying things I notice now that I never noticed then even though I know they were there. I'm guessing this was due to the fact that I change myself in some way to cope with it.

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I've found I'm seldom fooled by seemingly 'nice' people. I guess that's one benefit of empathy. This doesn't mean it's foolproof by any means. I can't read others who have the same quirk, for example. :)

As for your question, I can block out some, but not others. I can't make a sweeping statement here, because it depends on the type and level of pain and the level of shiny.

It's all quite complicated and something I've found best explained in person. I can use diagrams and all. :)

But I do not find it an effort to spend time with you unless you are exceedingly unhappy and broadcasting it. You rarely do this and when you do you retreat to your room anyway. So most I've ever picked up from you in that particular state is flashes of 'not happy' before you hid. As for the rest, the shiny definitely exceeds and outweighs the effort it takes to block out your chronic pain.

[happydisciple.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone's nice. We're all angry and jealous and cruel and selfish, some of us just display it less than others.

I disagree most strongly with this.

The way Sessifet started her entry elicited immediate recognition in me. Why? Because I am nice, with the same meaning of nice that she uses, and I know people who are, in the same vein, not nice.

That's not to say that those "not nice" people are not nice to be around (they are, see Sessifet for example) or not loveable (they are), or that I'm always nice to be around (I'm not).

Most of the time, I am genuinely "[...] happy and pleasant and caring [...]".

I'm hard to upset. If something is said or done that could be construed as unpleasant, hurtful or damaging, but equally validly as something innocent & innocuous, I am more likely to go with the more positive explanation (nice person, positive outlook on life). Even things that are clearly negative very often don't upset me, because in the grand scheme of things they don't matter, or the people behind 'em don't matter (and yes, that's a nice person saying "the people [...] don't matter").

However, should you (a hypothetical you, I hasten to add) do something to upset me, I will not let things "[...] fester for the sake of being 'nice'". You will be told. Most of the time, you will be told quite reasonably, and rationally. But should the upset be great, hoo boy, will you be told. You could find yourself hit by the fury of the Big Bang (this can shock people, because they don't expect it from this normally happy & smily & pleasant person).

And after that, after I've explained myself in a rational (or an as close to rational as possible) way, I consider the matter dealt with. The air cleared, no festering.

I'm not about "being nice", I am nice. I'm not nice so that people get along with me, or so that I can avoid negative situations, it is my nature. And if that puts you (going back to the actual you) on edge, I'm sorry for that, but it's not something I can do anything about. I cannot not be me.

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

I can distinguish between actual nice people and 'nice' people (just to make things wonderfully confusing). Genuinely nice people make my brain go happy and fuzzy when spending time with them. 'Nice' people put me on edge.

I've just been handed a New Scientist with an article about personality types and I think the_ladylark and I have decided that 'agreeableness' is a much better term.

Unfortunately any word we're going to choose to describe personalities or traits is going to have different emotional values to different people. I for example don't tend to use the word nice as it also implies blandness to me. I used it in this post because I know it is a word most people have similar ideas about. Shows what I know, right? :)

[silly-swordsman.livejournal.com]

I used to put on masks, and I was damned good at it. I used to build walls, and I was damned good at it. And then, I looked around and could only see masks and walls. Somewhere underneath it all there was a me, that I had forgot about.

So I started trying to dismantle the whole construct, because it was getting dangerously wobbly. And I jotted down a few observations on attitude problems (http://www.cunobaros.com/thoughts/attitude_problems.php), the way masks make a false change (http://www.cunobaros.com/thoughts/spare_change.php), and what happens when you're facing the wall (http://www.cunobaros.com/thoughts/facing_the_wall.php).

Maybe you'd find them interesting, for comparison and contrast.

(And maybe my vanity is interested in any comments you have on them)